Big Lizards:Blog:Entry “Are Teenagers "Children?"”

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March 31, 2006

Are Teenagers "Children?"

Hatched by Dafydd

This is a very strange case; most of the time, teenagers who want to video sex scenes are boys, not girls. But three Rhode Island teenaged girls got together; one sixteen year old taped her two friends (19 and 16) having lesbian sex.

All three have been arrested... but if this news report is accurate, the girls are being charged with producing and conspiracy to produce "child pornography."

If that's the case -- that's really wrong. If the law in RI makes no distinction between teens and pre-pubescent children in pornography, then the law must be changed. If the law does make such a distinction, then damn it, the news agencies should report it more responsibly.

I am a great believer in discrimination. I love discrimination... which simply means the ability and willingness to discriminate between things that are, in fact, very different. (There is also a very bad form of discrimination, where differences are manufactured where none exist -- as with racial discrimination.) Anybody who cannot discriminate between sex with a 16 year old and sex with a 6 year old is demented.

Teenagers have raging hormones. They will have sex. Not every person, of course; but we will never be able to prevent all or even nearly all teens from having sexual feelings, sexual contact, or even sexual intercourse. It's a natural phenomenon that does not respect modern-day definitions of majority that stretch out childhood by adding a long period called "adolescence." (Earlier societies tended to consider people adults when they reached sexual maturity -- pubescence.)

It's quite reasonable to have laws against adult-teen and teen-teen sexual activity; society evolves, and we're no longer like, say, the ancient nomadic herding Jews who literally considered a 13 year old boy a "man," able to marry and make contracts and such. But for heaven's sake, just because we choose to define a 16 year old as a minor doesn't mean we have to imagine that she is actually a "child."

I know many women whose first experience was as an older teen with a slightly older teenaged boy who was legally an adult; yet they don't think of that as anything remotely like "child molestation." (True child pornography always includes some aspect of child sexual abuse; it's abuse for the production of graphic imagery.)

I can certainly see making what those girls did criminal; that's up to the community. But there must be some sense of rationality at some point: even if you think it's bad (and most would, including myself) for teenaged minors to appear in sexual explicit videos, it's not as bad as when actual, prepubescent children do the same. The law -- and our rhetoric -- must reflect that, or else we stand in danger of losing all distinctions whatsoever.

And without the ability to rationally find distinction, how can we teach moral discrimination between right and wrong to our kids?

Hatched by Dafydd on this day, March 31, 2006, at the time of 6:44 PM

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Comments

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

Just a check to see if comments are now working.

Dafydd

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh at April 1, 2006 2:17 PM

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

Gentle Readers:

The following was a comment posted to the previous version of this post by frequent commenter Dick E. For technical reasons, I had to delete and recreate the post; so I'm reposting Dick E's comment here. Sorry for the inconvenience!

Remember, this comment is actually by Dick E:

---------------------------

Dafydd-

I fully agree with your thoughts on discrimination.

My rule of thumb on the second kind of discrimination you refer to (that involving disparate treatment of people) is: If it's something out of the person's control (ethnicity, physical impairment, etc.), then it's wrong to discriminate against them. If it's something the person has done to himself (mode of dress, body piercing, etc.) then it's reasonable to at least take this into account when deciding how to deal with them.

My favorite example is, imagine you have been jogging in the park and need to sit down for a rest. There are two park benches available. On one sits a clean cut, well groomed, well dressed person. On the other sits a mangy looking man wearing a trench coat (even though it's a hot day) with no socks, bare legs, and a tattoo on his bare chest that says "I hate ..." (whatever ethnic group you happen to belong to). I would submit that it is entirely reasonable to exercise discrimination and choose the first bench.

When my daughter made a remark about discrimination against kids that dress in goth attire, I told her about my rule of thumb. She got it immediately.

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh at April 1, 2006 2:35 PM

The following hissed in response by: mbnyan

I don't see how they can prosecute the 16 yr old. The child porn law is supposed to protect minors from being victimized, but they are prosecuting the victim for being abused.

However, an adult, even a 19 yr old adult, could be in a position to psychologically manipulate or physically coerce a 16 yr old girl, and 16 yr olds need to be protected.

If it were a 19 yr old boy would you feel the same way? I don't believe in sexual discrimination. How would you feel if the 16 yr old was your daughter and the 19 yr old was a boy? What if it was a 19 year old boy and your 16 yr old son?

In addition to having sex, they were video taping it. Who would control the video? Would you like images of your child having sex spread around on video tape, possibly sold for profit by an exploitive corporation or organized crime, or posted on the internet?

The above hissed in response by: mbnyan at April 1, 2006 2:52 PM

The following hissed in response by: Sachi

mbnyan

If it were a 19 yr old boy would you feel the same way? I don't believe in sexual discrimination. How would you feel if the 16 yr old was your daughter and the 19 yr old was a boy? What if it was a 19 year old boy and your 16 yr old son?

It does not make any difference wheather 19 year old is a boy or girl. I may not like my 16 year old having sex with a 19 year old. (Hey, I would not like my 16 year old having sex at all!) But, that does not mean this is necessarily wrong. A 16 year old can get married in some states for instance.

But, having sex with six year old is not only illegal, but always wrong.

The above hissed in response by: Sachi at April 1, 2006 3:30 PM

The following hissed in response by: Mr. Michael

It would be interesting to see what they are being charged in the conspiracy OF... whether it is in fact the conspiracy to PRODUCE Child Pornography, or if it is conspiracy to DISTRIBUTE Child Pornography. (The source article you link to doesn't specify... it mentions both the taking and the later posting of the photos.) I can see there being a grey area when it comes to teens having sex... but I see no grey area at all when it comes to distributing video of minors engaged in sexual activity.

I don't care if all THREE of them were minors... publishing a video of underaged sex in any medium is over the line... it is exploitation of minor children whether they agree to it or not.

The above hissed in response by: Mr. Michael at April 1, 2006 3:47 PM

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

mbnyan:

If it were a 19 yr old boy would you feel the same way? I don't believe in sexual discrimination. How would you feel if the 16 yr old was your daughter and the 19 yr old was a boy? What if it was a 19 year old boy and your 16 yr old son?

In addition to having sex, they were video taping it. Who would control the video? Would you like images of your child having sex spread around on video tape, possibly sold for profit by an exploitive corporation or organized crime, or posted on the internet?

But that's not the point, is it? The question isn't "is it bad;" the question is "which is worse?"

Turn it around. Which would upset you more: a 19 year old having sex with your 16 year old daughter -- or the same guy having "sex" with your six year old daughter?

If it were I -- and mind, I have no children -- I would be upset about the first... but homicidal about the second.

There is a huge difference.

Dafydd

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh at April 1, 2006 10:03 PM

The following hissed in response by: American Patrol

Often missing key phrase: position of power

Let’s take for example, the difference of 8 years involving a 15 year old girl and a 23 year old male.

Situation one: Cute 15 year old girl, who lives down the street from a 23 year old male, has known since she was born. As the 23 year old male is home after graduating college, the often flirtatious 15 year old girl is around a lot during the summer and they end up having sex.

Situation two: A 23 year old male teacher has a 15 year old student, in which he grades, disciplines, and in many way a powerful figure over her. She stays after class because she needs help with her home work, flirting beings, and he invites her over to his apartment and the have sex.

Doesn’t one sound as American as apple pie, and the other makes you sick?

The above hissed in response by: American Patrol at April 3, 2006 5:14 AM

The following hissed in response by: cdquarles

In the State of Alabama, the first situation is statutory rape and so is the second, unless the 15 year old has been emancipated. The age of consent is 16 and above. For persons at least 14 but less than 16 the partner cannot be more than two years older, ie 15 and 17 is ok. Unless emancipated, no one under 14 can legally give consent under any circumstance. In urgent medical situations, anyone 14 and older (but otherwise still a minor) can give consent for medical treatment (obviously, if a child is found unconscious with no caregiver at hand, EMS will attempt resuscitation until told to stop by a physician or production of written DNR.

I do have children, of whom the youngest is 16 and a half; and these situations occur much to frequently for my taste (and yes, one would hear whispers of similar situations back in the 60's and 70's when I was growing up...there was a girl raped at my middle school and there was a 9 year old girl who looked like a 16 year old in my neighborhood).

The above hissed in response by: cdquarles at April 7, 2006 2:15 AM