December 7, 2010

Don't Gasp, Don't Kvell part III - a Blogger Responds

Hatched by Dafydd

Ordinarily I don't debate blogposts in the comments section; I leave that for the readers to express their opinions. On the other hand, there are a some arguments which merit response. The compromise is to respond with another blogpost in order to answer the many points and questions raised by a previous post in this series... so here goes!

The previous parts of this ongoing series are:

Kill the messenger, not the message

Commenter RRRoark sees a larger agenda in the push to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell (DADT) and allow gays to serve openly:

I too see merit on both sides, but the deciding factor for me is that the demand is coming from a group that has traditionally hated the military.

But why should we penalize gay service members who only want to serve honorably and honestly in the military, simply because their demand for equal treatment is echoed by a Greek chorus (I couldn't resist!) which hates the military -- and whose support is likely not appreciated by gay service members in the first place?

We could make a corresponding "guilt by association" argument that favors repeal: Why do we take the same position against gays in the military that is echoed by the despicable Westboro Baptist Church, the vile haters who invade military funerals to chant "God hates fags" at grieving widows? The answer is, we cannot decide policy on the basis of which side has the worst unwelcomed supporters; there are fanatics on all sides. As Larry Niven says, "There is no cause so noble that it will not attract fuggheads."

Discrimination is as discrimination does

Is discrimination against gay service members akin to discrimination against black service members before President Truman desegregated the troops? Commenter Mdgiles disputes the notion:

The difference -- and it is a major difference -- between segregation in the old military, and allowing gays in the military; is the difference between appearance and behavior. I am black, a fact that can be ascertained over the proverbial country mile. Just as it can be ascertained whether I am short or tall, fat or lean. It's simply a question of how I look. It says noting at all about my probable behavior.

All right, then let's take another example. Should we enact a DADT-type policy requiring Moslem service members to keep silent about their religion, never mention even casually that they sometimes attend a mosque, that they read the Koran, or that they pray to Allah, on pain of being dismissed from the service with an other-than-honorable discharge?

"Moslemness" is certainly not something that can be detected a mile away, or even five feet away. Worse, unlike with gay service members, we have suffered several incidents in which Moslem service members have gone "jihad" and actually attacked and murdered their fellows in the name of Allah and Islam!

By contrast, even if Bradley Manning is gay -- and I have no idea -- nobody has suggested that he leaked classified information to WikiLeaks in an effort to further the gay-rights agenda.

Would it make our military more effective and efficient if we decreed that Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Atheists could all openly discuss their religion, but Moslems must stand silent, and forever live in the fear that somebody might spot them coming out of a mosque or overhear them praying -- even off base, even on leave! -- leading to disgrace and discharge?

Maybe a little, since we could discharge any radical Islamist unwise enough to let the mask slip -- along with thousands of other servicemen who would only have fought honorably for America and never attacked anyone on our side. Too, doubtless some servicemen don't like Moslems and get nervous when they find out somebody in their squad is one; I daresay more servicemen are worried about Moslems in the ranks than gays in the ranks... just as, during World War II, some soldiers were very uncomfortable fighting alongside American soldiers with names like David Hasselhoff or Norman Mineta. Some service members would surely have better morale if all Moslems are excluded from service (or forced to keep quiet about their suspect religion).

So should the slight increase in "effectiveness" and morale lead us to adopt that policy? The answer is an emphatic No -- and the reason cuts to the very heart of why we have a military in the first place.

What's the Army for, anyway?

The point we should understand is that, Rush Limbaugh aside, the ultimate purpose of the American military is not to "kill people and break things;" otherwise, it would be a good thing if an Army unit sortied out from a base in one of our allies' countries and went on a looting and killing rampage. Violence by itself is not the goal of the military, it is one means, a tool it can use to further a goal that is decided far "above the paygrade" of even four-star admirals and generals.

The purpose of the American military is to advance the national interests of the United States of America. This of course includes, but is not limited to, national self-defense.

Sometimes our national interests require killing and breaking; other times they require delivering food, building schools, saving residents of a distant land from the effects of floods or hurricanes, or negotiating a peace between rival tribes.

But at all times, the goal (accepted by the military) of advancing the national interests of the United States always includes promoting the foundational values of the United States, the virtues that brought us into existence in the first place: Democracy, individual liberty, rule of law, and limited government.

If our government uses the military to assail those values, then both government and military have become anti-American and must be stopped. For example, if United States Marines stood in polling booths and told voters how to vote; or if the Army began making mass arrests of peaceful dissidents; or if the U.S. Navy began seizing people they suspected of being pirates and summary executing them on the spot, without a trial... then our uniformed personnel would have disgraced their uniforms -- even if they acted under orders -- and should be prosecuted under the Universal Code of Military Justice.

(And note, I never specified the nationalities of the above victims. It doesn't matter.)

The reason is that the military is not an end to itself; its function is to promote American interests, which includes promoting our foundational values. If they act to demean those values, they violate the sacred trust we endow them by allowing them to wage war in our name. An army of tyranny cannot fight for liberty.

Back to the Moslem example. Were we to proclaim religious liberty with our mouths, then spit on that very freedom within the ranks -- were we to discriminate within the military service against one religion among all others -- we would be mocking the ideals and the credo of the United States; the paltry gain from treating Moslems in our military service as "dhimmi" would be far outweighed by the message of hypocrisy and fraud, which would drag our country down into the same filth as the very countries we're fighting in the war against radical Islamism.

Note that nothing above prevents us from going after Moslem service members who engage in, conspire to engage in, or call for others to engage in jihad against America or our allies. Why not? Because then we are discriminating, not on the basis of religion or any other statistical class of people, but on the basis of violent and criminal actions committed by an individual.

"Unapproved" is not "evil"

I strongly believe that the same holds true for gays serving in the military. While homosexuality is not a religion, the syllogism is strikingly similar in structure:

  1. Gays hold certain beliefs and engage in certain actions that make others "uncomfortable."
  2. But those actions are not inherently mala in se, the legal term for activity that is a crime by its very nature, inherent evil such as murder, assault, rape, robbery, theft, and so forth -- within the American culture as a whole.

    For an action to be malum in se, it must be almost universally considered so in our society, our entire society (which is what the military is there to protect and promote, remember?) -- not just among a small subset of very religious Americans.

  3. Yet we have made it a crime within the military, a malum prohibitum -- a crime only because we have declared it a crime, like driving on the left side of a road or painting your house the wrong color as defined by zoning laws.
  4. And the justification for this malum-prohibitum law is not that anything inherent to homosexuality itself causes a breakdown in morale, good order and discipline, or military effectiveness -- nobody alleges that gays are inherently incapable of engaging in effective combat or standing watch or peeling spuds -- but rather that some heterosexual service members might feel an unreasonable fear or loathing against gays that might stop those heterosexuals from peforming their duties.

That is, the argument is not that "gays can't fight;" the argument is that "some straights are so rattled by the fact of homosexuality that they themselves can't fight." Therefore -- gays shouldn't serve openly? The argument is mad on its face.

-- With liberty and justice for all

Obviously the military can prohibit behavior that quintessentially disrupts military functioning, such as gays aggressively soliciting straights -- or other, non-interested gays -- or straights harassing gays -- or straights aggressively soliciting service members of the opposite sex. And any sort of harassment, oppression, political activism, or evangelism can legitimately be curtailed within the military, whether its purpose is to recruit members into homosexuality or to recruit members into Christianity.

But there is no more reason to single out gays, as a class, for official silencing than there is for singling out Moslems, Democrats, or blacks.

The difference between the American military and, say, the North Korean military is that our armed forces promote freedom and liberty, while theirs promote the whims of the Dear Leader, no matter what those whims may entail.

We engage in the absolute bare minimum restriction of liberty in our culture, even of our soldiers, Marines, sailors, and airmen; so long as speech or activity does not impede the goal of protecting and projecting the national interests of the United States, we don't treat our servicemen and -women as slaves or prisoners. (After the initial period of training is completed, and lumpen civilians have been turned into fighting men and women, that is.)

We don't tell them who to vote for, or what religion to practice, or even what movies to watch. Heck, we even let them publish blogs, unless those blogs begin to disrupt combat (for example, by giving away our tactics, positions, or objectives). We don't tell servicemen what kinds of girls to date or marry; why should we tell them which gender to date?

There is no mission-related reason to curtail that liberty, especially since the Supreme Court struck down (Lawrence v. Texas) all laws against "sodomy" in the larger culture; it is now only a crime within the military and nowhere else, despite the inability to articulate any reason why homosexuality is inherently incompatible with "good order and discipline."

Personally, I believe it all comes down to irrational hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality. And please do recall that I completely oppose same-sex marriage and support all efforts to promote traditional marriage, even covenant marriage; I'm not a spokesman for the gay agenda.

Who's a sodomite anyway?

In fact, I also think the UCMJ should be brought into line with Lawrence even on purely heterosexual matters; I believe it's still technically "sodomy," under Article 125, for a serviceman to engage in oral sex with his wife, in his own home, on his own time:

Article 125 -- Sodomy

Text.

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense.

(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall by punished as a court-martial may direct....

Explanation.

It is unnatural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person’s mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person’s sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person or of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal.

When is the last time a straight serviceman was prosecuted and kicked out for oral sex with a woman? Why is there no DADT for BJs? In addition to everything else, gays also suffer disparate treatment under military law; they are unequally prosecuted for doing (or even admitting doing) what is equally illegal under the code if done by a heterosexual serviceman.

So how many servicemen are there right now in the military who demand that homosexuals serve in secret or not be allowed to serve at all -- yet who are themselves "sodomites" under the UCMJ? And how many of those would agree never again to get a BJ or even reveal that they enjoy it?

Fox in the hole

MDGiles continues:

This might not present a problem to some pencil pusher in the Pentagon (where they seem to have concentrated this "survey") because they go home at the end of the day. However at the "sharp end of the spear" it's often 24/7, and 365.

The implication being that the demands of front-line combat make it impossible to accept openly gay service members fighting alongside straights.

But why? Other than appeal to privilege, nobody has given a real argument why a straight soldier would feel more nervous sitting in a foxhole with a gay soldier than with a soldier of unknown sexual preference. It's hard to imagine that in such a tense situation, anybody, gay or straight, would be chumming for sexual partners.

We all agree that there already are gay soldiers, sailors, airmen, and even Marines in service; evidently, they aren't putting the moves on the other guy in the foxhole, or the DADT-discharge rate would be much, much higher than it is.

I would guess that DADT notwithstanding, most gay members of the military service are already known to be or suspecting of being gay by most of their squadmates. In nearly all cases, the latter generally ignore the fact as irrelevant -- unless the gay member actually starts causing a problem, making a spectacle of himself, or hitting on people left and right... which is a separate problem and easily dealt with by disciplinary action, just as it would be in the case of heterosexual or non-sexual harassment.

This is a silly argument, unsourced and unsupported. It amounts to the ancient stereotype of saying that gays just can't control themselves like straights can: Bob bends over to pick up a sandbag, and Nigel just can't stop himself from grabbing Bob's posterior.

But -- in a foxhole? On the deck of an aircraft carrier? In a Boeing 767 AWACS controlling a battlefield? In a fast-attack submarine? For heaven's sake, isn't this argument just a tad ridiculous? It's reaching so far, it topples off the table. If somebody is that oblivious to external reality, it doesn't really matter if he's gay or straight; he's a menace either way.

Now there is one circumstance where this could happen, but it's not strictly confined to gays. If a gay man is living an explicitly "gay lifestyle" -- say in the ferment of the Castro-Street subculture of San Francisco -- surrounded by other, very promiscuous gay men and heading out to the bathhouse every other night with his friends, then yes, his sexual activities could overwhelm every other aspect of his life. But by the same token, straights who fall into the "swinger" lifestyle might find their own sex lives out of control; and Moslems living a strict and fundamentalist Islamic lifestyle might find their religion getting out of control.

Yet the danger in these cases come from radicalism of any kind, not from Moslems, heterosexuals, or homosexuals as a class. I agree that we should not allow radicals into our armed forces, and we should discharge them if we discover their radicalism after enlistment. But radical anything, I mean.

Slip sliding away

Commenter Pam worries about the slippery slope (bracket-notes added for reference below):

Guess I'm a big picture person, but if we allow gays to serve openly, then [1] couldn't they get married or have a civil union if they so choose? If they can do this, [2] how can the government deny a spouse all the dependent privileges that current spouses have? If this happens, then [3] isn't the Federal Defense of Marriage Act pretty much gone, and if that's gone, then we pretty much have to [4] accept any or all unions from state to state!

Quick answers:

  1. No, just because you are allowed to serve doesn't change the definition of marriage.
  2. A government cannot deny a spouse spousal benefits; but we do not recognize same-sex marriage at the federal level.
  3. You cannot "back-door" (sorry again!) a repeal of DOMA by allowing gays to serve openly in the military, because DOMA says nothing about that issue.
  4. Finally, even if Congress voted not only to repeal DADT but also to repeal DOMA, that would not immediately allow polygamy and sibling marriage; each issue would have to be fought separately, either in the proper venue of Congress and state legislatures, or in the entirely inappropriate venue of the courts.

(This argument is basically, "If we give gays one item from the gay agenda, aren't we obliged to give them every other item?" Of course the answer is No, we're not.)

Brains rinsed while U wait

Commenter Bill Befort raises a jurisprudential point that I've seen from others:

There's a lot more to this than who showers with whom. As Adm. Mullen's comments hint, it means endless brainwashing: the services essentially ordering members to demonstrate acceptance of homosexual behavior, or else.

No brainwashing at all... any more than allowing, say, atheists to serve means endless brainwashing of members to force them to approve of atheism. The answer is that, in order to serve in the military, you needn't approve of homosexuality, promiscuous heterosexuality, atheism, Islam, or even the military culture of orders and discipline: You only need to tolerate those things and be willing (even if you don't like it) to obey orders and do your duty, to support your fellow members, and to be willing to lay down your life, if necessary.

You don't have to like your squadmates, and you certainly don't have to approve of their lifestyles from some cosmic perspective. For that matter, some gay servicemen who happen to be monogamous church-goers might thoroughly disapprove of the lifestyle of a straight serviceman who drinks like a chimney and sleeps with ten different women every month.

But hey, he doesn't have to approve. He only has to tolerate Mr. Don Juan; and both men have to be there for each other when the bullets begin to fly, literally or metaphorically.

Bill Befort continues:

And the services will need to collect data on whether the policy is "working," which among other things will mean Must Ask, Must Tell.

Surely we can tell whether units are coming together (ack, I just can't stop myself!) or falling apart without having to query (sigh) every service member as to his sexuality. The signs would be obvious... just as they are when, for example, politicos dictate unworkable rules of engagement or a bad CO is unable to lead his men.

We need to give the test enough time that units find ways to overcome the inevitable problems that any change brings, but not so much time that a unit that is not adapting is utterly demoralized or rendered unfit for duty.

Measure six times before you repeal

The experiment is to see whether (and how) units can overcome any initial friction and remain melded together. Any change, even a good one like desegregating the troops, brings some dislocation for a while. Let a small number of units experience that and find ways to overcome it, and then we'll have a template for overcoming similar temporary dislocation in the armed forces as a whole.

Alternatively, we may discover that it's impossible to overcome the problems; in which case conservatives have new and potent ammunition to argue against repealing DADT throughout the entire military.

My hackles rise automatically whenever those who oppose some policy on the grounds that it will lead to disaster are unwilling even to support a small-scale test run; I cannot shake the feeling that the real reason isn't that they think a scale run will disclose serious problems... but rather that the scale run will generate solutions that make the policy change easier, less dangerous, and therefore more likely to occur.

But if it turns out that fears of catastrophe are unfounded, yet the same people still oppose the policy, then fear of failure was never the reason for rejecting the policy in the first place.

And then we're back either to irrational hatred of gays, or the inappropriate institutionalizing of specific religious doctrine into military law... or both.

Hatched by Dafydd on this day, December 7, 2010, at the time of 11:35 PM

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Comments

The following hissed in response by: snochasr

it still appears to me that your excellent and elaborate reasoning is all predicated on the rather fuzzy assumption that there is absolutely no difference between a gay service member who may or may not be "suspected" and one who openly declares or even flaunts his or her gayness. Since under the current policy gays are expected not to "tell," then the fact that we already have some gays serving successfully speaks to a successful policy, rather than proof of a needed change. The quickest and best way to conduct your proposed experiment is to simply command the gay soldiers currently serving (in a few units) to announce their status, and see what happens from there. It is the path most likely to produce the results--continuation of good order and discipline – you seek, IMHO.

I think the old adage "what you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say" applies, except that in this case it really is backwards. Most people, including soldiers, don't care if somebody is gay; that is a private matter, just like their religion. But when someone publicly announces their religion or sexual orientation (or any other opinion), it becomes a public act – a behavior – indicating an intent to do something other than quietly maintain their personal status. Most generally it is seen as a challenge to the beliefs of the larger group and inescapably disruptive to some degree.

I like your argument that the US military should advance U.S. values, but they ought to be values that we actually value, and not things that we simply tolerate like "three girls in every port" or flagrant homosexuality.

The above hissed in response by: snochasr [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 8, 2010 8:15 AM

The following hissed in response by: Chris Balsz

Yet we have made it a crime within the military, a malum prohibitum -- a crime only because we have declared it a crime, like driving on the left side of a road or painting your house the wrong color as defined by zoning laws.

This is probably the weakest point of your case-- that some laws are Law, and some are just rules. They are all orders. Examples of malum prohibitum include the Geneva Conventions.

Obviously the military can prohibit behavior that quintessentially disrupts military functioning, such as gays aggressively soliciting straights -- or other, non-interested gays -- or straights harassing gays -- or straights aggressively soliciting service members of the opposite sex. And any sort of harassment, oppression, political activism, or evangelism can legitimately be curtailed within the military, whether its purpose is to recruit members into homosexuality or to recruit members into Christianity.

That isn't obvious at all. Many homosexuals would condemn your breeder prudery as just another form of repression of the pure, natural urge to git-it-on as often as possible. I have been told as much for complaining about being solicited in public parks.

That is, the argument is not that "gays can't fight;" the argument is that "some straights are so rattled by the fact of homosexuality that they themselves can't fight." Therefore -- gays shouldn't serve openly? The argument is mad on its face.

So why don't we have women in combat units?

There is no mission-related reason to curtail that liberty, especially since the Supreme Court struck down (Lawrence v. Texas) all laws against "sodomy" in the larger culture; it is now only a crime within the military and nowhere else, despite the inability to articulate any reason why homosexuality is inherently incompatible with "good order and discipline."

How is the dictates of unelected judges an expression of "our" values that totally destroys legislation from the elected legislature?

(This argument is basically, "If we give gays one item from the gay agenda, aren't we obliged to give them every other item?" Of course the answer is No, we're not.)

Better inform the Supreme Court of this, stat! The decriminalization of sodomy didn't mean states were required to remove all denigration of homosexual relationships--except Percy v Schwarzenegger says it DOES.

The US military did not tolerate communists either during the Cold War. This was not because every single guy who questioned the income disparity in America, was a bomb-throwing hireling of Moscow. It was because by denying patriotic, loyal, eager Commies the privilege of military service, they ditched the whole problem of sniffing out the violently disruptive Reds, whose policy was to create an underground illegal conspiracy everywhere the Party was tolerated.

The experiment is to see whether (and how) units can overcome any initial friction and remain melded together.

How would that work? I don't know that we carry any superfluous units capable of rupture; if we do then I have some defense cuts to suggest--

But say we do find the USS Testtube will do for your purposes. Fine.

The chaplain quits/is yanked, because he will not counsel gay men that their sexual behavior is normal and holy. (that's the most likely loss)--does the USS Testtube cruise without a chaplain?
What about other personnel slots? When do you start bringing in people from outside--and what just happened to the limited test?

'The experiment is to see whether (and how) units can overcome any initial friction and remain melded together.' Do you think the Pentagon is going to say "Repeal doesn't work", or will it punish the commanding officer(s) for 'obvious' failure to lead? (Adm. Mullen has pretty much made clear how "we'll handle it").

This is not about homosexuals being tolerated. We have tolerance with DADT. This is about homosexuals demanding to be celebrated - as in, I'm GLAD you're here as homosexuals. And clearly, anybody who don't feel the groove can get out.

We've been told for years that wars with

The above hissed in response by: Chris Balsz [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 8, 2010 11:20 AM

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

Snochasr:

The "value" I recommend the military advance is individual liberty, not homosexuality (or heterosexuality). There are obvious valid constraints on liberty within a military unit; but I do not believe that diktats on the gender that a service member may date is among them.

When I say "openly gay," I mean the serviceman can say "John and I went to the movies," instead of having to remember to change the gender to "Joan and I." (Or Mary can say, "Linda gave me a beautiful anniversary gift of a day at the beauty spa," rather than have to remember to change Linda to Larry.)

Or if Jaime elbows Frank in the ribs and says, "Look at that hot babe over there," Frank can laugh and respond, "Sorry, Jaime, wrong gender," without worrying that if some third party overhears, it's the end of Frank's career.

And if Lt. Lyle and Melvin are Christmas shopping in a mall, they shouldn't have to worry that if some enemy photographs them holding hands, he can blackmail Lyle with a credible threat to end his military career if he doesn't pass along some classified material.

However, flagrantly flaunting one's sexuality -- homosexual or heterosexual -- is certainly one of those valid constraints, which should answer your concern. I define "flaunting" as public intimacy that makes a reasonable person very uncomfortable, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual; and yes, there is some element of subjectivity... so be it. Picture a guy in a crowded barracks French-kissing his girlfriend; I think that would make most guys squirm in embarassment, which (being guys) they would probably cover up by making raucous comments -- but that doesn't make it any less embarassing. On the contrary, it doesn't bother me at all to see a guy holding a girl's hand, so it should not be legally considered "flaunting" for a guy to hold another guy's hand.

However, anyone of either gender or any sexual orientation who turns his private sex life into a public peep show should risk NJP or mast, at least:

Imagine a sergeant or petty officer describing in lurid detail his latest sexual encounter with a [woman/man], while subordinates are forced to listen... some enjoying it, others (especially younger servicemen and -women) squirming in embarassment but too afraid to say anything, others morally repelled -- but realizing that saying anything could severely impact the rest of their enlistment.

I find that NCO's behavior not only unprofessional but downright offensive; and I believe he should be disciplined -- at least have to do a tap dance for his department head. Further punishment if he's one of those 2% who "never get the word."

I don't believe any service member should ever be compelled to openly declare his sexual preference. It is not information essential to a properly functioning military, and it violates his right of privacy.

(And yes, even people in military service have some right to privacy, albeit more abbreviated rights than a civilian. For example, a CO should never be allowed to ask a serviceman how often he has sex with his wife and what positions they enjoy. Does anybody disagree?)

Dafydd

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 8, 2010 11:45 AM

The following hissed in response by: wtanksleyjr

I don't think the experiments you're proposing are good ideas, or going to give any answers. The problem is that the military isn't an experimental culture; they regularly cancel the results of wargames that don't go the way they expected (one notorious one is when they canceled the destruction of an aircraft carrier by Backfire bombers, but didn't cancel the entire turn -- that is, all the fuel and maneuvering of the Soviets were used up, and the Americans got to respond to the bombers flying over the carrier).

What needs to be done is to consider the broad, systemic effects of this change, just like you're doing above by looking at the sodomy laws, since obviously they can't stand if DADT is to fall. I think that this will result in MUCH more tightly constrained pseudosexual behavior (hazing, teasing, and such) than before.

This is certainly a much more profound change than the racial incorporation.

Oh, by the way... Your experimental setup is terrible, even if experimentation could yield good results. REQUIRING people to register their sexual orientation is ... ghastly. It would only apply if the "new army" involved doing the same thing. That's, frankly, disturbing.

-Wm

The above hissed in response by: wtanksleyjr [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 10, 2010 10:50 AM

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

Wtanksleyjr and everyone else:

Oh, by the way... Your experimental setup is terrible, even if experimentation could yield good results. REQUIRING people to register their sexual orientation is ... ghastly. It would only apply if the "new army" involved doing the same thing. That's, frankly, disturbing.

You misunderstood me, W. I strongly oppose any forced "outing" of anyone's sexual preference, and I proposed no such thing.

In this experiment, within certain units, DADT would be suspended: That means nobody could be discharged from those units solely for the crime of "sodomy" alone -- except the animal part or any kind of sex that really can be shown to be incompatible with military service, like visiting bathhouses for orgies with dozens of other men, many of them quite unknown to the participant.

Nor could a member be discharged solely for mentioning or implying that he or she enjoys certain kinds of relatively normal, non-extreme sex, if done so casually, inadvertently, or otherwise not intended to harass or offend others.

You could still discharge anyone for sexual assault, rape, harassment, extortion, blackmail, or (as noted) for forms of sex so extreme that they really do pose a danger and can be shown to, beyond some guy saying, "Eew, I can't stand to be around that limp-wristed fairy!"

Similarly, you could still discharge someone for sexual exhibitionism, or for making a public spectacle of himself by (e.g.) giving a long interview about his sexual pleasures to a porn magazine, or breaking a sex-related civilian law off base, or organizing a "sex club," or deliberately regaling service members with his or her sexual exploits without reagard to whether they wanted to hear it, or anything else where his sexual activites clearly interfere or conflict with his duties.

Nobody is required either to out himself or to engage in any kind of sex; nor is anyone required to approve of or cheerlead for any sexual preference or practice, nor even forbidden to say (as a general observation, not a personal condemnation) that he opposes some kind of sex and considers it an abomination... unless his evangelism is itself disruptive -- running up to the "evil-doer" at every opportunity and harranguing him to see the light and come to Jesus.

The experiment is to see whether units can adjust to knowing what heretofore they only suspected (albeit strongly): That Joe or Felicia is gay.

You can't discharge Joe because he says, "Frank and I had our honeymoon in Providence, Rhode Island." Nor could PO1 Rhonda be discharged because her husband, a former Navy chief, bragged to his buddies still in the service that Rhonda gives the best oral sex he's ever had in his life.

(Now if she herself went around bragging that, that could be grounds for discharge for sexual harassment by improper sexual language, depending on how brazenly she did it and whether it was intended to harass or disturb others.)

In other words, I propose only a very minor change to the UCMJ within those experimental units: Simply that one particular aspect of the sexual-conduct rules be suspended, because it is based almost entirely on old stereotyping and catering to bigots. I disapprove of a lot of things that people do; but I don't start trouble about it unless it actually affects me or others, beyond "I can't stand that so-and-so does such-and-such where I can't even see it."

For instance, I am not a Christian, and I frankly find the Christian concepts of original sin that can only be washed away by God's forgiveness, and the impossibility of living a sin-free life without constant intervention by divinity, disturbing and offensive. I have always had many very religious friends who do believe those doctrines, and I never try to argue them out of it. However, if they started evangelizing me, and wouldn't stop after I asked them not to, then I certainly would no longer remain friends with those people.

None has ever pressed the issue after I made plain I wasn't interested in converting; we agree to stay friends and just avoid certain confrontational issues... but I certainly don't tell them not to "act Christian" or profess Christianity in my presence! As long as they don't directly interfere with my life, I don't interfere with theirs.

As to experimenting on a small scale with certain units, it's done all the time right now. The branches are constantly experimenting with new weaponry, ammunition, armor, tactics, food, combat vehicles, modes of transportation, communications, medical procedures, and administrative changes. In many cases, they make those changes to a few units to evaluate how they perform in the real world before mandating them branch- or military-wide.

And thank goodness we do! It limits the damage of stupid changes, allowing us to back out gracefully, if necessary.

Those changes with which we already experiment every year, particularly during wartime, can be far more deadly, if unwise, than simply saying that in these certain units, if you happen to mention that you have a same-sex partner, that alone will not get you discharged from military service. For example, changing the ROEs for some units might yield excellent improvement in lethality towards the enemy -- or might result in more dead American soldiers, if the new ROEs prove to be bad ideas.

I'm not proposing something novel here; just that we apply testing and evaluation procedures we already do in the service to the particular thorny issue of whether to allow gays (and heterosexuals who enjoy oral sex with their spouses) to serve openly.

Dafydd

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 10, 2010 12:47 PM

The following hissed in response by: Pam

Dafydd, thanks for the response, but I just disagree; I don't see how giving benefits does not change circumstances. Once we give benefits for the military, then we must for everyone working at the Federal level. Once this is done, then marriage is redefined wether we like it or not because we have made an exception. The Courts will be forced to decide because law suites will follow.

Sorry, Dafydd but you're wrong about this; you cannot give in on this, without giving in to all of the Agenda. I just don't see how you say gays can opening serve, recieved benefits for their loved one, and have this no spread like wild fire.

The above hissed in response by: Pam [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 13, 2010 10:01 AM

The following hissed in response by: Pam

Dafydd, thanks for the response, but I just disagree; I don't see how giving benefits does not change circumstances. Once we give benefits for the military, then we must for everyone working at the Federal level. Once this is done, then marriage is redefined wether we like it or not because we have made an exception. The Courts will be forced to decide because law suites will follow.

Sorry, Dafydd but you're wrong about this; you cannot give in on this, without giving in to all of the Agenda. I just don't see how you say gays can opening serve, recieved benefits for their loved one, and have this no spread like wild fire.

The above hissed in response by: Pam [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 13, 2010 10:01 AM

The following hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh

Pam:

I don't see how giving benefits does not change circumstances. Once we give benefits for the military, then we must for everyone working at the Federal level.

Please read what I wrote more carefully. I did not say that same-sex partners of openly serving gays would get spousal benefits; I said that they would not, unless in addition to repealing DADT Congress also voted to change the definition of marriage or else voted specifically to give spousal benefits to unmarried partners.

Here is what I wrote in point 2 of my response to you:

A government cannot deny a spouse spousal benefits; but we do not recognize same-sex marriage at the federal level.

Because "we do not recognize same-sex marriage at the federal level," therefore we do not treat same-sex partners as spouses.

Since DADT says absolutely nothing about granting or denying spousal benefits to SSM partners, repealing it would have no effect on federal regulations regarding spousal benefits. Since the status quo is that they do not get them, they still would not get them.

You would need a special congressional vote just for that. We might get a bare majority in favor of repealing DADT; we would not get anywhere near a majority for repealing DOMA, changing the definition of marriage at the federal level, or giving spousal benefits to non-spouses. (For one thing, if we did the last, wouldn't we also have to extend benefits to unmarried heterosexual partners, lovers, and girlfriends?)

If you want to disagree that we should allow gays to serve openly in the military, that is of course your right as an American (a right fought for by many gays in the military, past and present). And as a general rule, I have no problem with "slippery slope" arguments. But this particular one is nonsensical.

Dafydd

The above hissed in response by: Dafydd ab Hugh [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 13, 2010 11:12 AM

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